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HD Radio is a farce!

Dieses Thema im Forum "Radioszene Deutschland" wurde erstellt von PocketRadio, 27. Oktober 2008.

Status des Themas:
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  1. PocketRadio

    PocketRadio Benutzer

  2. freiwild

    freiwild Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Je kunt gelijk hebben, ma ik denk we zullen in Duits praten.
     
  3. radiovictoria01

    radiovictoria01 Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    in het Nederlands zou het ook mogelijk zijn? :)
     
  4. stereo

    stereo Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Zou me niets utimaken. Maar de text waarover Pocket schrijft is ook in het Engels en werd niet vertaald voor de Pressespiegel. Das Thema scheint mir allerdings eher etwas für die Rubrik Studio- und Sendertechnik zu sein.
     
  5. HeavyRotation25

    HeavyRotation25 Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Wat?? :confused:
     
  6. radiovictoria01

    radiovictoria01 Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Seulement une argumentation sur la langue correcte :)
     
  7. Phiber

    Phiber Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Dat heb ik niet begrepen!
     
  8. radiovictoria01

    radiovictoria01 Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Dutch people in Saxonia? What a big surprise....:)

    generell question a) which language should be used to discuss the matter?
    generell question b) is this the correct chapter to discuss the matter -
    it should be moved into the technical/studio-section.

    and now: what about the topic?
     
  9. PocketRadio

    PocketRadio Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Sorry, for posting here, but I had a heck of a time registering and figuring out where to post, because I only speak English. This looked like the most active thread. I would just hate to see you guys get taken in by this HD Radio scam, and ruin your broadcast bands, as iBiquity and our corrupt FCC have done in the U.S.
     
  10. radiovictoria01

    radiovictoria01 Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    You're from the US? Well, this new topic will be moved this morning (our time) into the other (studio/technical) chapter, I guess. Here are enough users capable of the Englsih language to discuss the problem. HD radiobroadcasts are still no subject over here in Europe so it might be of interest what experiences you (and others) made.... probably to be weaponed early enough.
    THIS chapter is only about existing and former fm-stations (mostly) in Germany.
     
  11. freiwild

    freiwild Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    As far as I know HD Radio is popular in the U.S., but it won't be in Europe. The FM bandwidth in Europe is only half of what it is over there (100 kHz instead of 200 kHz), and as 40 kHz of this bandwidth is needed for the analog service, HD Radio can only use 60 kHz for the digital service (if not less because of clearance distances) instead of 160 kHz in America. The test service in Heidelberg used more bandwidth, but thus infringed federal and European communication rules IMHO.

    On AM these's an own norm here, DRM (Digital Radio Mondial, not to be confused with the digital rights movement).
     
  12. drubbel

    drubbel Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    "The test service in Heidelberg used more bandwidth,"
    --- correct. and many technicans don't now, that the test-transmitting in germany with very high digital-power was tested . Interference ? Noooo........... :rolleyes: (read also the publications from lfk.de)
     
  13. freiwild

    freiwild Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    According to our dear friends at ukwtv the test transmissions in Heidelberg use only low power (in contrast to the standard high power analog signal), but caused severe interferences from 102,6 to 103 MHz.
     
  14. PocketRadio

    PocketRadio Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Yea, I live in Maryland, USA. I'm glad that there seems to be no interest in HD Radio in Europe, but iBiquity is trying to break into the less-informed smaller countries, as they may be more gullable.
     
  15. radio_watch

    radio_watch Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Actually Digital Power is -20dB of analogue power (1%) in HD in the US, Clear Channel and others have experienced servere propagation problems due to stronger than expected noise in metro areas, and want to increase digital power to -10% - according to statements made at the NAB in Austin.

    Generally speaking all efforts to establish new radio plattforms are lacking consumer interest, so this is no HD-Radio problem. 8-))

    Having seen the tests of Ruoss in Luzern I am quite sure that HD Radio fits into the ITU mask. Therefore HD will not jam broadcasting bands, regardless if it´s a wise decision whether or not to invest in it. I would not do it, as the consumer adoption process will unfortunately be too slow to have a breakeven anywhere in the next 15 years. Anyway, if you want to waste your money on competing I-Phone and friends by a non-convergent radio-only technology - HD-Radio is your best guess, as the setback for your profit is smaller than with DAB!

    It´s a different story in AM anyway, as the US have 10 kHz bandwith and Europe only 9, afik there is no solution for that problem yet.

    According to statements made at the NAB the number of sold HD sets is about 400k, the estimate for this year was over 1M5!
     
  16. Swen Kuboth

    Swen Kuboth Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Stimmt nicht. Sie fahren sogar mit mehr Power als eigentlich Standard wäre.

    Eigentlich: 50kW analog + 2x 220W HD
    Projektzustand: 45kW analog + 2x 1000W HD

    Zumindest lese ich das aus den Unterlagen vom HD-Tag in Stuttgart. Solls ja auch ein Härtetest sein.

    Meine Meinung: Um es zu einem Erfolg zu machen müßte es großflächig eingeführt werden. Das geht aus koordinierungstechnischen Gründen nicht. Eine Änderung dessen ist nicht in Sicht/gewollt. Thema erledigt.
     
  17. PocketRadio

    PocketRadio Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    "HD Radio spinners claim a breakthrough year: Pulling a fast one"

    "According to a press release from the Alliance 330,000 HD receivers were sold last year. This is a 725 per cent increase from the 40,000 sets purchased a year earlier and therefore 2007 was a 'breakthrough year' for the technology. In 2008 they will sell a million of the things."

    http://tinyurl.com/4zgkaw

    More lies from iBiquity and the HD Alliance. After all of the returns of these "defective" radios, I'de put the real number at 100,000 to 200,000. Of course, many radios were purchased by radio-geeks and members of the broadcast comunity, and free giveaways by radio stations, etc...
     
  18. drubbel

    drubbel Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    Na, das liest sich wie ein ........schlechter Roman. Offenbar nicht erfolgreiches US-Radiossystem soll mit viel G. und g. Zahlen über die Schweiz nach Deutschland gebracht werden. Sendeleistung viel höher als normal, dennoch keine guten Ergebnisse. Störungen werden wegdiskutiert, es kann kaum einer nutzen. :eek:
    Hoffentlich merken die RadioMacher der Republik, was los ist.
     
  19. K 6

    K 6 Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    It's a bit different. 200 vs. 100 kHz is the channel spacing, not the bandwith. The digital component of an IBOC/HD system extends up to +/- 200 kHz, thus an IBOC signal has a bandwith of no less than 400 kHz.

    The crucial difference is that in the USA no FM stations serving the same place are closer than 800 kHz to each other. Contrary at Berlin (as an example) a number of stations operate within 500 kHz of each other, and in rural areas it is common to have stations with overlapping coverage areas within 300 kHz of each other. There is just no room for the +/- 200 kHz digital component of IBOC, even when accepting that reception of distant stations is no longer possible.



    Again, 10 vs. 9 kHz are just the channel spacings, that's not what makes the real difference. With the NRSC standard in the USA audio up to 9.5 kHz can be sent into the transmitters, which means that the complete spectrum of carrier plus two sidebands occupies 20 kHz. The ITU-R (formerly CCIR) specifications for Europe actually call for the infamous 4.5 kHz cut-off, but with a careful set-up one can stretch the ITU-R limits to 6 kHz of transmit audio (and quite a number of European AM stations indeed do that).

    The AM system of IBOC / HD Radio (taken aside the digital-only variant) uses two digital sidebands, extending up to 14.7 kHz from the carrier. This means that such a signal also occupies the two neighbouring channels. One could say that American AM stations always did this with their analogue sidebands, but it makes a difference if it is just sideband splash or a digital signal (which causes a continuous hiss in analogue radios, as can be studied on any DRM signal). The latter ruins a station on the next channel that previously was still listenable, and basically this concept ruins skywave reception of distant stations at night.

    I think Brazil experiments with the AM IBOC system, too. But even Canada does not and considers DRM instead (although most likely AM will simply die out there). So there is no point in even discussing it for Europe.
     
  20. Tonband

    Tonband Benutzer

    AW: HD Radio is a farce!

    OK, here the newest scientifically proven results for the 'IBOC'-System, (& DRM & FMeXtra), Oct.21, 2008:

    download site of LFK: http://www.lfk.de/home/hd_radio/main.html (Landesanstalt für Kommunikation Baden-Württemberg)

    especially here, from Bundesnetzagentur (pages 15 and 22): http://www.lfk.de/home/hd_radio/download/Vortrag_Noll_ DRM_HD-Radio_FMeXtra_21.10.08.pdf
    Die VOR-Störungen galten doch früher mal als Killer-Kriterium? oder nich?
     

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